It's a little unfair to hold Taretha responsible for information she doesn't have. She grew up in what was basically a small town and the fact that she was taught how to read was WILDLY outside the norm. She's by far more educated than the average Lorderon citizen, but that doesn't grant her omniscience. She doesn't know what happens outside of Durnhold unless someone tells her, and who's going to discuss world politics with Blackmoore's whore?
Now, once she leaves and the Horde meets up with Jaina's forces, she'll have a new source of information - but then you have to look at what Jaina would be able to tell her. It boils down to "the men in charge are being stupid". So Taretha's not flat-out racist against humans, but boy does she have a bone to pick with human culture. Jaina couldn't even escape her father trying to tell her what to do by sailing halfway across the world to stop a demon threat that a king and an archmage both didn't consider worth their time and effort.
As for the "not all men" argument, it's not like she got to go visit other kingdoms. All she knows of human culture is Durnholde Keep, and then Theramore (see above and Jaina's father valuing a 20-year-old grudge over his daughter's word) and what Varian and his people have displayed. You may recall she had no problems with his guards. Varian is a hot-tempered man with a lot of authority and a lot of charm, three things he shares with her abuser. The first day he met her, he was casually racist pretty bluntly implied that she needed a man. She's not going to lay down and go gentle on his fragile male ego; she's going to puncture it until he stops to think before he leaps to conclusions. (Which, by the way, is the trait he proposed to her for, and the trait she accepted for.)
I applaud your knowledge of lore! However, the Black Morass was more accurately a swamp, and the reason the land withered was the connection to Draenor via the Dark Portal was basically an open would causing Azeroth to bleed life-energy into the void.
I haven't read any of the RPG books, so if the raping you mention comes from there, you can assume it didn't happen in Tariverse because Tides of Darkness doesn't mention Orgrim's Horde hanging around for halfbreeds to be born. It was crush, consolidate, and move on because they knew that if they'd stopped to settle down, it would only be a matter of time before the other human kingdoms showed up en masse to wage war on them. (And also, to be technical, the kingdom of Stormwind doesn't actually count as its own continent - even if you just count the landmass south of Arathi.) They went north not, as you assert, because building cities was "too hard". They went after Lordaeron because humans were a powerful foe, and they would not be able to settle down and rebuild their lives until they had utterly defeated the defenders of the land they intended to claim as their own.
Factions on both sides did horrible things during the war, and I won't try to pretend the Horde was blameless. But given that Stromgarde was able to repel the Scourge and provide a good chunk of Jaina's forces in the Third War, I'm going to have to call you on your claim that the Horde was able to "shatter the kingdom of Stormgarde irreparably". Furthermore, the orcs had pretty much nothing to do with Alterac's fall; they did that to themselves. With regards to the Horde being unable to take Lordaeron, Tides of Darkness makes it absolutely clear that the failed siege was due to Orgrim sending a chunk of his forces to run down Gul'dan immediately, not from Gul'dan's defection. He chose to prevent Gul'dan from getting whatever he wanted, even if it meant weakening the Horde to the point of being unable to complete the siege they were winning. Anything the orcs did in Quel'thalas was secondary to the trolls and their ancient war with the elves who pushed them out of their forests so long ago. Oh, and the Greymane Wall didn't go up until after the Second War was over.
I do have to wonder where you're getting your casualty numbers from because all the information I can find says the human kingdoms and their populations came out way more intact than the orc clans. It's unfair to say that the Alliance as a whole were generous in letting the remnants of the Horde live, because Stromgarde and Gilneas both left the Alliance out of disagreement with that decision.
On the pruning of the Proudmoore family tree: Daelin Proudmoore only had two sons, and only Derek died (Commander of the third fleet, who perished in the Second War when he came under the attack of dragonriders). Tandred is still alive and rules Kul Tiras. Their mother isn't so much as named in canon, much less given a fate. Daelin himself was consumed by hatred and sailed a fleet halfway across the world to disregard everything his daughter had to say and tell her to shut up while he continued a one-sided vendetta; he fully deserved his death.
Varian does not have a sister. Until the movie gave her a name, he didn't even have a mother. I could go into detail about his issues and where they come from, but like Daelin, he's carrying a grudge some twenty years old.
The orcs, as a whole, drank the demon blood under coercion and false pretenses when the Horde was first formed. Not all of them drank. Blackhand refused to allow his daughter that honor, for example, and Durotan forbade any of his clan from drinking. However, during the Third War, it was only Grom's Warsong that drank and he did it knowing that what he was doing was wrong and that Thrall would not approve. Furthermore, he was immediately held responsible for his actions and died redeeming himself.
The Third War was not "their own god damned mess". The orcs were a pawn of the Burning Legion, expendable canon fodder and cast aside when they'd outlived their usefulness. When their assault failed, the Legion got creative and sent dreadlords with the Lich King and tried again with the Scourge. It's not like they sat around in Kalimdor summoning Archimonde; on the contrary, they stood up where King Terenas and Archmage Antonidas dismissed Medivh's warning.
You call orcs "traitors, cowards and murderers as often as anything honorable" but to be brutally honest, the same can be said for humanity on Azeroth. For every Anduin Lothor there's an Aedelas Blackmoore; for every King Llane there's an Aiden Perenolde. And if you're going to hold the orcs accountable for everything they did under demonic influence, then you're going to have to give the same treatment to Medivh for being under Sargeras's influence. After all, if it weren't for Aegwynn's arrogance, there would have been no one to whisper into Gul'dan's mind and the Dark Portal would never have been opened.
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branchandroot
Re: unForgiven Re: Ankokugai22@yahoo.com
Date: 2016-09-10 01:11 am (UTC)Now, once she leaves and the Horde meets up with Jaina's forces, she'll have a new source of information - but then you have to look at what Jaina would be able to tell her. It boils down to "the men in charge are being stupid". So Taretha's not flat-out racist against humans, but boy does she have a bone to pick with human culture. Jaina couldn't even escape her father trying to tell her what to do by sailing halfway across the world to stop a demon threat that a king and an archmage both didn't consider worth their time and effort.
As for the "not all men" argument, it's not like she got to go visit other kingdoms. All she knows of human culture is Durnholde Keep, and then Theramore (see above and Jaina's father valuing a 20-year-old grudge over his daughter's word) and what Varian and his people have displayed. You may recall she had no problems with his guards. Varian is a hot-tempered man with a lot of authority and a lot of charm, three things he shares with her abuser. The first day he met her, he was casually racist pretty bluntly implied that she needed a man. She's not going to lay down and go gentle on his fragile male ego; she's going to puncture it until he stops to think before he leaps to conclusions. (Which, by the way, is the trait he proposed to her for, and the trait she accepted for.)
I applaud your knowledge of lore! However, the Black Morass was more accurately a swamp, and the reason the land withered was the connection to Draenor via the Dark Portal was basically an open would causing Azeroth to bleed life-energy into the void.
I haven't read any of the RPG books, so if the raping you mention comes from there, you can assume it didn't happen in Tariverse because Tides of Darkness doesn't mention Orgrim's Horde hanging around for halfbreeds to be born. It was crush, consolidate, and move on because they knew that if they'd stopped to settle down, it would only be a matter of time before the other human kingdoms showed up en masse to wage war on them. (And also, to be technical, the kingdom of Stormwind doesn't actually count as its own continent - even if you just count the landmass south of Arathi.) They went north not, as you assert, because building cities was "too hard". They went after Lordaeron because humans were a powerful foe, and they would not be able to settle down and rebuild their lives until they had utterly defeated the defenders of the land they intended to claim as their own.
Factions on both sides did horrible things during the war, and I won't try to pretend the Horde was blameless. But given that Stromgarde was able to repel the Scourge and provide a good chunk of Jaina's forces in the Third War, I'm going to have to call you on your claim that the Horde was able to "shatter the kingdom of Stormgarde irreparably". Furthermore, the orcs had pretty much nothing to do with Alterac's fall; they did that to themselves. With regards to the Horde being unable to take Lordaeron, Tides of Darkness makes it absolutely clear that the failed siege was due to Orgrim sending a chunk of his forces to run down Gul'dan immediately, not from Gul'dan's defection. He chose to prevent Gul'dan from getting whatever he wanted, even if it meant weakening the Horde to the point of being unable to complete the siege they were winning. Anything the orcs did in Quel'thalas was secondary to the trolls and their ancient war with the elves who pushed them out of their forests so long ago. Oh, and the Greymane Wall didn't go up until after the Second War was over.
I do have to wonder where you're getting your casualty numbers from because all the information I can find says the human kingdoms and their populations came out way more intact than the orc clans. It's unfair to say that the Alliance as a whole were generous in letting the remnants of the Horde live, because Stromgarde and Gilneas both left the Alliance out of disagreement with that decision.
On the pruning of the Proudmoore family tree: Daelin Proudmoore only had two sons, and only Derek died (Commander of the third fleet, who perished in the Second War when he came under the attack of dragonriders). Tandred is still alive and rules Kul Tiras. Their mother isn't so much as named in canon, much less given a fate. Daelin himself was consumed by hatred and sailed a fleet halfway across the world to disregard everything his daughter had to say and tell her to shut up while he continued a one-sided vendetta; he fully deserved his death.
Varian does not have a sister. Until the movie gave her a name, he didn't even have a mother. I could go into detail about his issues and where they come from, but like Daelin, he's carrying a grudge some twenty years old.
The orcs, as a whole, drank the demon blood under coercion and false pretenses when the Horde was first formed. Not all of them drank. Blackhand refused to allow his daughter that honor, for example, and Durotan forbade any of his clan from drinking. However, during the Third War, it was only Grom's Warsong that drank and he did it knowing that what he was doing was wrong and that Thrall would not approve. Furthermore, he was immediately held responsible for his actions and died redeeming himself.
The Third War was not "their own god damned mess". The orcs were a pawn of the Burning Legion, expendable canon fodder and cast aside when they'd outlived their usefulness. When their assault failed, the Legion got creative and sent dreadlords with the Lich King and tried again with the Scourge. It's not like they sat around in Kalimdor summoning Archimonde; on the contrary, they stood up where King Terenas and Archmage Antonidas dismissed Medivh's warning.
You call orcs "traitors, cowards and murderers as often as anything honorable" but to be brutally honest, the same can be said for humanity on Azeroth. For every Anduin Lothor there's an Aedelas Blackmoore; for every King Llane there's an Aiden Perenolde. And if you're going to hold the orcs accountable for everything they did under demonic influence, then you're going to have to give the same treatment to Medivh for being under Sargeras's influence. After all, if it weren't for Aegwynn's arrogance, there would have been no one to whisper into Gul'dan's mind and the Dark Portal would never have been opened.